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Opposition activist Pahlavi in London. Foto: Grey Hutton / DER SPIEGEL
Reza Pahlavi Discusses the Iranian Regime “Yes, I Want a Revolution”
Reza Pahlavi, the eldest son of the last Shah, has high hopes for regime change in Tehran. He speaks with DER SPIEGEL about why he thinks Iran is ripe for change and how he hopes to be a part of it.
Interview Conducted by Susanne Koelbl
29.05.2024, 17.27 Uhr
Artikel zum Hören•15 Min
The oldest offspring of the former monarch clearly resembles his father, but he looks softer, not as wiry. The 63-year-old is wearing a dark-blue, pinstriped suit and his light-gray hair is combed back. A small Iranian flag is pinned to his lapel.
Pahlavi has a mission. He has recently been traveling the world to places like Tokyo, Seoul, Washington and Brussels. He also made an appearance at the Munich Security Conference in 2023.
He is currently in London meeting with politicians, members of the media and advisers. Pahlavi wants to drive the Islamic leadership in Tehran out of power, the revolutionaries who once overthrew his father and drove his family out of the country.
Our interview takes place in an exclusive hotel in the Mayfair district. The precise location was only provided shortly before the interview for security reasons. DER SPIEGEL 22/2024
The article you are reading originally appeared in German in issue 22/2024 (May 25th, 2024) of DER SPIEGEL. SPIEGEL International
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Pahlavi, you were an 18-year-old crown prince when you had to leave Tehran 45 years ago as a result of the Iranian Revolution. In recent years, you have presented yourself as a beacon of hope for a system change in the country. Could the death of President Ebrahim Raisi contribute to such a change? He was seen as the likely successor to 88-year-old Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei.
Pahlavi: The death of Raisi changes little. He was a brutal mass murderer, a long-time servant of Ali Khamenei and the Islamic Republic. The Iranians do not mourn his death. Mr. Mokhber … About Reza Pahlavi
The oldest son of the last Shah, Rezi Pahlavi was born in Tehran in 1960. His birth was a national occasion. His mother, Farah Diba, was widely seen as the Jackie Kennedy of the Middle East due to her elegance and her avant-garde interests in art, women’s empowerment and education. The crown-prince designate was trained as a fighter pilot after completing school. Later, following the revolution and his family’s flight into exile, he studied political science in the U.S.
Two of Pahlavi’s three siblings became depressive. His sister died from an overdose of sleeping pills and his brother took his own life. Pahlavi’s mother is now 85 and lives in Paris.
Pahlavi is married and lives with his wife in the U.S. state of Maryland. The couple has three daughters.
DER SPIEGEL: … the former first vice-president who was just appointed interim president …
Pahlavi: … is a long-time regime functionary in the office of the Supreme Leader and, like Raisi, he will be at his service as a lackey. So the policy of the Islamic Republic will continue, with Ali Khamenei as dictator at the top.
Regime loyalists mourning the death of President Raisi on May 22 in Tehran. Foto: Office of Iranian Presidency / UPI / ddp
DER SPIEGEL: You remained in the background for quite some time. Now, you are actively fighting for regime change. What is it that you want?
Pahlavi: In actuality, I am not saying much differently today than I did 40 years ago. I began this mission four decades ago, when my country was at war. A lot has happened there since I left Iran and given its rich resources and capabilities, Iran should have developed into at least the South Korea of the Middle East. Instead, we have become the North Korea of the Middle East. No one believes in reform anymore and Iranians are looking for a scenario for transition. I am stepping in to offer that leadership, because there are lots of expectations of me. This compels me to step in. I want to serve my country.
“I hear Iranians chanting my grandfather’s name at football matches; I see young Iranians having my father’s signature tattooed on their arms.”
DER SPIEGEL: In 1979, the Iranians chased your father out of the country in disgrace because of his authoritarian style of leadership and social injustices. Your family also had to go. What gives you the confidence today that the people want you back?
Pahlavi: I receive an overwhelming response; I read what is written in the social media in Iran; I hear Iranians chanting my grandfather’s name at football matches; I see young Iranians having my father’s signature tattooed on their arms. For me, these are clear signs that many Iranians have revised their former position – despite the indoctrination they have been subjected to there for decades.
Iranian women on the streets of Tehran in September 2023. Foto: Atta Kenare / AFP
DER SPIEGEL: Your father, the last Shah, ruled with a heavy hand. According to human rights organizations, a huge number of political prisoners were arrested under his leadership, with many of them being tortured and killed. That has not been forgotten in Iran.
Pahlavi: There was a political crisis, there were shortcomings. No system is perfect. But Iranians recognized that the goal of the Pahlavi dynasty of my ancestors was modernization: the introduction of infrastructure, education, land reform, healthcare and equal rights for women. In a way, Iran was avant-garde at the time. Women were given the right to vote eight years before the Swiss. Until a revolution took place that took over our country.
“I am not my father. I have my own plans, my own vision.”
DER SPIEGEL: You have never distanced yourself from the violence of your father’s notorious SAVAK secret service.
Pahlavi: I have criticized where criticism is due. I address these issues openly in my books. However, there was a disproportionate exaggeration of facts, especially by radical Islamists and Marxists. They had an interest in denigrating the regime, which was largely pro-Western and did not agree with their ideology. Historians should come to terms with that.
DER SPIEGEL: A lot has already been uncovered and documented.
Pahlavi: But I am not my father either. I have my own plans, my own vision, and I should be judged by what I propose.
DER SPIEGEL: Which is?
Pahlavi: I offer myself to the Iranians in this process as an honest broker of the transition to a new era. I am trying to tell people that they should not just hope for better times, but tell them: Let’s start believing that we can actually do this. My goal is to guarantee the rule of law for every single citizen – including women’s rights, ethnic rights, religious rights and LGBTQ rights.
Street protests following the death of Mahsa Jina Amini in Tehran. Foto: IranWire / Middle East Images / laif
DER SPIEGEL: Tehran is ruled by a brutal autocratic government that demonstrated it determination to defend its power with all its might in the recent mass uprising following the death of 22-year-old Iranian-Kurdish woman Mahsa Jina Amini in police custody. How do you intend to get rid of them?
Pahlavi: Anyone who analyzes this regime, whether inside or outside the country, no longer believes that it can be reformed. We see that even radical people who are actually in favor of the regime are turning away, such as the former editor-in-chief of Kayhan, one of the country’s most conservative newspapers. The man was very close to the supreme leader Ali Khamenei. Today he lives in Toronto because he no longer believes in the Islamic Republic and wants change.
“Iranians are still prepared to make sacrifices. Because they know that their country is doomed if we don’t get rid of this regime.”
DER SPIEGEL: The most recent uprising has cost the lives of over 500 Iranians since 2022, tens of thousands of demonstrators have been arrested and tortured, and some have even been executed. Do you want a new Iranian revolution?
Pahlavi: Yes, I want a revolution. Iranians are still prepared to make sacrifices. Because they know that their country is doomed if we don’t get rid of this regime.
DER SPIEGEL: It’s easy to make such a proclamation from the lobby of a five-star hotel in London.
Pahlavi: The last uprising was already a revolution. This was their natural response to oppression, not because I called for it. The demonstrators chanted “Death to the dictator.” Ali Khamenei, the revolutionary leader who represents this regime, is rejected by at least 80 percent of Iranian society. The regime has crushed this uprising with all instruments of repression, but it is much weaker than ever before. It is divided. Elements of the military and the paramilitaries are worried that they would be the first victims of acts of revenge in the event of an escalation. There are already defectors.
“There are already some defectors. In order to maximize the chances of success of a revolution, we would have to offer as many of them as possible the opportunity for reconciliation.”
DER SPIEGEL: The regime still has many supporters. There are many extremely wealthy people in Iran who benefit from this regime and hundreds of thousands of supporters in the security apparatus for whom the current political model is beneficial. Why should they change sides?
Pahlavi: The top commanders of the regime benefit the most. The lower classes and ranks only get a paycheck, which is sometimes not even enough to pay the rent. They also drive taxis, collect bribes and are completely disillusioned. In order to maximize the chances of success of a revolution, we would have to offer as many of them as possible the opportunity for reconciliation.
DER SPIEGEL: Should there actually be an overthrow, in other words, you are speaking of a general amnesty to ensure a peaceful transition?
Pahlavi: Of course, some people will have to be held accountable for their actions. Nevertheless, I believe that we must stop the cycle of revenge and retribution. That’s what sets us apart from the regime. We believe in human rights. We believe in due process.
DER SPIEGEL: When you speak of “us”, who exactly are you referring to?
Pahlavi: Myself and the team I am assembling, plus the majority of Iranians who support this viewpoint.
DER SPIEGEL: Why have the various forces of the exile opposition been unable to agree on a common approach for decades? Which ones are you co-operating with?
Pahlavi: When you talk about coalitions, they are formed by political parties, not individuals. The recent event in Georgetown, where I appeared with representatives of the opposition, was largely symbolic. But when you look inside Iran, there is much more unity and a united vision. That is what matters more.
DER SPIEGEL: You have lived in the U.S. for four decades. It is said that you are much closer to the Republicans than to the Democrats. Have you already begun talking to former and possibly next U.S. President Donald Trump about regime change in Tehran?
Pahlavi: I haven’t met Mr. Trump yet, but I’ve been in talks with members of both camps over the years. I find dialogue partners on both sides who share our vision. Essentially, it is about the fact that four decades of efforts to bring about the desired change in the behavior of the Iranian leadership have clearly failed. The arguments don’t change whether I’m speaking with Donald Trump or Joe Biden. The question is which way they think is the right answer!
“For decades, governments in Washington, London, Berlin and Paris have tried to avoid confrontation with the regime. The result is that the regime, together with its proxies, spreads terrorism in the region and poses a nuclear threat.”
DER SPIEGEL: You have called on the European Union to finally take a firmer stand toward the Islamic Republic. What exactly do you mean?
Pahlavi: For decades, governments in Washington, London, Berlin and Paris have tried to avoid confrontation with the regime. The result is that 60 percent of the people there live in poverty and the regime, together with its proxies, spreads terrorism in the region and poses a nuclear threat.
Pahlavi visiting Israel in April 2023, seen here with Prime Minister Netanyahu, his wife Sara and then-Minister of Intelligence Gila Gamliel. Foto: Israeli Ministry of Intelligence / picture alliance / AA
DER SPIEGEL: A year ago, you visited Israel, an avowed opponent of the Islamic Republic. You discussed your possible return to power with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the head of the Mossad. Are you and Netanyahu now united in the fight against the Islamic Republic?
Pahlavi: The aim of this first ever trip by an Iranian politician to Israel was to explain to the Israelis what a secular, democratic Iran could mean for them and the Middle East. What it means when the Iranian nation lives in peace with its neighbors and maintains friendly relations, and when the country is not hostile towards the Arab world and the existence of Israel. Our relations with the Jews have existed since Cyrus the Great …
“Iran could be part of the peace formula for the Middle East – for Saudi Arabia and the people of Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and beyond.”
DER SPIEGEL: … the Persian king and military strategist who united the Iranian peoples as ruler until 530 B.C.
Pahlavi: Why shouldn’t Iran conclude an extension of the Abraham Accords with Israel, like those concluded between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Morocco? We could call it the Cyrus Agreement. Iran could be part of the peace formula for the Middle East – for Saudi Arabia and the people of Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and beyond.
DER SPIEGEL: Do you really believe you can turn back the clock to the era when your father ruled Iran?
Pahlavi: The geopolitical situation was complicated back then too. The Berlin Wall was still standing and the Cold War was dominant. The Soviet Union and its allies were opponents of the Western world. Iran, however, played an important role in stabilizing the region at the time. We had very good relations with the West, but also with the Eastern Bloc, China and the Soviet Union. We did not want to become a victim of this tug-of-war between East and West, we pursued a balanced approach. The regime completely destroyed this balance and led to instability, conflict, hostility and radicalism.
DER SPIEGEL: Now, though, your campaign for change is largely focusing on Western democracies: the U.S., Europe – and Israel. Are you perhaps also interested in a military option to push through a new state order in Tehran?
Pahlavi: Let me be clear: I am not supported by the U.S. so far, at least not by the current administration, and in no way do I want a military attack or a possible war against my country. I am talking exclusively about civil disobedience.
DER SPIEGEL: Despite all the sacrifices that Iranians have made so far, this approach has yet to find success. The recent protests have made that painfully clear once again.
Pahlavi: It’s about providing maximum support to the Iranians who want change. At the same time, we need to develop an exit scenario and offer a way out to those who are currently trapped within the system of the Islamic Republic. I’m thinking of principles of national reconciliation like in South Africa: We need a transitional justice system, a constitutional process that legally prepares the transition.
“We need to empower all those who are disillusioned with the regime. We need to maximize defections.”
DER SPIEGEL: You want to make offers to potential defectors?
Pahlavi: In order to lose as few lives as possible in this process, we must minimize the resistance of those people who have the weapons. So if the rulers try to commit genocide at the last minute, the security forces in the country must become a protective shield for their own people.
DER SPIEGEL: How would that work?
Pahlavi: The 90 percent of the armed forces who are not benefitting from the corrupt leaders are not in a tenable situation. A regime that only has 10 percent support cannot survive in the long term …
DER SPIEGEL: … though the country’s rulers have been holding out for quite some time.
Pahlavi: The question is not whether the regime will disappear, but when, and whether we have given Iranian society the maximum support. Specifically, whether we can accelerate the demise of the Islamic Republic before it reaches the threshold of possessing a nuclear weapon. Because then we will have a completely different conflict situation. It could be six months or two years from now. We have no time to lose.
DER SPIEGEL: Does that mean that if Iran does obtain nuclear weapons, hopes for a change at the top come to an end?
Pahlavi: A nuclear-armed Iran would mean a confrontation that could have catastrophic consequences. A global conflict with God-knows-what consequences is conceivable. I would like to spare the Iranians and the world such an outcome.
DER SPIEGEL: During your speech in European Parliament in Brussels last year, you called for the powerful Revolutionary Guards to be designated as a terrorist group, as the U.S. has done. This step would maximize tensions between Iran and Europe. What could be achieved by such a step?
Pahlavi: Foreign governments should increase pressure on the regime through further sanctions, especially against the Revolutionary Guards. What other options do you have against a corrupt mafia that wants to arm itself with nuclear weapons, and if diplomacy doesn’t work and you want to avoid a military conflict? At the same time, there needs to be maximum support for dissidents and activists, help in funding internet access in Iran and for labor strikes and so on. We need to empower all those who are disillusioned with the regime. If this happens, more and more radical elements will break away and enter into dialogue with us. We need to maximize defections.
President Raisi is laid to rest in Tehran on May 21. Foto: Islamic Republic News Agency IRN / UPI / ddp
DER SPIEGEL: You were the crown prince of the last monarchy and never relinquished your title. In what role would you like to return to Iran: as monarch, prime minister or president?
Pahlavi: You’re putting the cart before the horse. My goal is a secular country, a democratic process in which it is ensured that every voice is heard and counted, fairly and transparently. I am not in favor of a monarchy or a republic. That is for the Iranians to decide at the ballot box. I merely want to be a facilitator of this transition. That’s it. I have no intentions beyond that.
“The aim is to deepen the strong division that already exists within the Islamic Republic – and to win over those who turn away from this system to the people’s opposition movement.”
DER SPIEGEL: Some of your supporters are loudly calling for the reinstatement of the monarchy. Would that also be your preference?
Pahlavi: That is their right. Iranians should be free to choose the next form of government –whether it be a parliamentary monarchy or a republic. That will be decided at the ballot box.
DER SPIEGEL: Do you hope that the current crisis triggered by the death of President Raisi will bring your return to Iran closer?
Pahlavi: Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei has already called for new elections. Of course, they will be rigged again. I will call on my compatriots to boycott these so-called elections en masse. The aim is to deepen the strong division that already exists within the Islamic Republic – and to win over those who turn away from this system to the people’s opposition movement.
DER SPIEGEL: The collapse of your father’s regime in 1979 was also a personal tragedy for your family at the time. For many months, nobody wanted to take you in, and then your father died. Two of your siblings succumbed to depression and died tragic deaths. Are your political activities also an attempt to come to terms with your life story?
Pahlavi: I remember talking to my sister, who was depressed about these events, and I told her: “Don’t worry so much! You can’t change the past, only what happens in the future.” In that sense, I never looked back. But whether you are loyal to the regime in Tehran today or are part of the opposition – the result of the revolution has been a catastrophe. We can do it. I think we will return home one day.
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Pahlavi, thank you for this interview.
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