| Awni Al-Mashni and I have known each other for more than a decade. We are the same age, and live only an hour’s drive away from one another — him in Bethlehem, me in Tel Aviv — but our personal history is entirely different: I served in the Israeli army, while Awni served time in Israeli prisons for his activity in Fatah. Still, upon being introduced by a Palestinian mutual friend, we immediately found that we shared common values and, more importantly, a common vision. Based on those values and vision, in 2012 we co-founded an organization that we initially called “Two States One Homeland,” now known as “A Land for All,” which suggests an outline for a confederal solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since then, we have met hundreds of times, traveled together throughout Israel and the West Bank, and spoken to thousands of Israelis and Palestinians. We talk on the phone — in Arabic, as Awni doesn’t speak Hebrew or English — at least two or three times a week, sometimes more. We have become not only political partners, but friends. Over these long years, we have had to overcome no shortage of severe crises in Israeli-Palestinian relations: the 2014 Gaza war, the 2015 “Knife Intifada,” the 2018 Great March of Return, the 2021 “Unity Intifada,” and many others. But no crisis has come close to resembling October 7 and Israel’s ensuing onslaught on Gaza. The shock of that day, and the deep fear about the future of this land, have accompanied us ever since. To mark the one-year anniversary of the war, Awni and I recorded a conversation. Even before we began speaking, we knew there would be a limit to how the conversation would progress: Awni, sensitive as he is, cannot comprehend the depth of the emotional shock I felt at the atrocities Hamas inflicted on October 7; and I, sensitive as I am, cannot comprehend the depth of his emotional shock at the deliberate mass killing of his people in Gaza. Moreover, this was not a conversation between equals. I am on the side of the occupier, Awni is on the side of the occupied. While I do not deny the responsibility of Hamas and other Palestinian groups for the crimes they have committed, I am deeply convinced that the foundation of all violence between Israelis and Palestinians lies in what my state and people have done, and continue to do everyday. Until we, as Israelis, correct this injustice, neither we nor the Palestinians will be able to live here in peace. The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity. Meron: I want to remind you of the conversation we had a year ago, on October 7. One of us, I don’t remember who, said that the attacks were unexpected and yet entirely predictable. In my view, it was expected that the siege on Gaza would one day explode, and that the entire status quo would collapse. What I could not have predicted was the brutality of Hamas’ actions that day — the killing of civilians in their homes, the massacre at the Nova festival — as well as the failure of the Israeli army to protect civilians. How do you recall your feelings on that day? Awni: It is hard for me to think about my feelings on that day after everything that has happened since. The fact is that as long as there is occupation, as long as Palestinian people are attacked and imprisoned, the underlying causes of October 7 still exist. I don’t know what will happen, but I know that the Palestinian people will not accept the situation continuing as it is forever. On October 7, it was Hamas. In the future, it could be other, more radical organizations. Will they come from the West Bank? From Jordan? I don’t know, but they will come. Meron: I didn’t ask what you’re thinking now, I asked how you felt on October 7. What was the biggest surprise for you on that day? Awni: The biggest surprise was Hamas’ ability to even do such a thing, and the weakness of the Israeli army. That day, I realized that Hamas had killed a lot of civilians. I am against killing civilians, whoever and wherever they may be. I am against killing civilians at a festival, against killing women and children, Israelis, Palestinians, foreigners. I have expressed these sentiments clearly, I have written articles about it and I continue to hold these views. Israel’s killing of 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza did not change these feelings; it is unacceptable to kill nearly 1,000 Israeli civilians, just as it is unacceptable for Israel to commit mass destruction in Gaza. Meron: At that moment, it was clear to us that after what happened on October 7, the Israeli response would be severe and violent. Did you expect what came next to happen? Awni: Honestly, I did not. I expected there to be killings, bombings, an invasion of Gaza. But on such a scale? I wasn’t expecting it. And the biggest surprise for me wasn’t the army’s response, but the extent of the Israeli public’s support for the killing and starvation. I thought that the Israeli army would commit war crimes, but that there was an Israeli society with humane and moral values that would not accept this. I remember that half a million Israelis in Tel Aviv protested against the Sabra and Shatila massacre [in 1982] and forced [Defense Minister Ariel] Sharon [who was held responsible for authorizing the massacre] to set up a commission of inquiry. I thought that half a million Israelis would come out against this killing in Gaza. The fact that Israeli society has become more extreme than the army — even criticizing it for not killing enough — was a surprise to me. How do you view Israeli society today, where journalists in TV studios hand out sweets and chocolates and pop champagne in celebration of killing people? Meron: I also did not expect Israel to reach this level of violence and barbarism. It pains me that people I see on the street, in cafes, in hospitals, may have committed or supported these crimes. I hear what people are saying and I am ashamed. We have been working together for peace, equality, and mutual acceptance between Jews and Palestinians for over 12 years. But now, I ask myself whether Israeli society will ever accept that there is another people in this land, and that they deserve to have rights. I ask myself whether our efforts throughout all these years had any impact, and I have no answer. Israelis don’t view what happened on October 7 the way you do. They only saw the incomprehensible barbarism of Hamas. Many Israelis have relatives who were killed, and I understand the desire for revenge. We are human beings. But we have reached the point where there is no limit to what Israel will do. Awni: Perhaps one can understand, for human reasons, the fact that what happened on October 7 arouses feelings of revenge. The question is, what will arise from what is happening in Gaza? What will happen to the Palestinian generation that is being shaped by it? How will Palestinian children grow up? Will they be able to see an Israeli as a partner? I don’t have an answer to these questions. This is an excerpt from my conversation with Awni Al-Mashni about Jewish-Palestinian solidarity under the shadow of war. Read the full article tomorrow on +972 Magazine. |
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